posted on FB Jan 2, 2014 - tinyurl.com/rmcwowpic - Adam J. Haller · 3 mutual friends
Indeed, we can only become stronger as a people if women are able to read Torah at the Kotel. 
Rachel Ann Anolick-hindarochel · 28 mutual friends
There is nothing improper about women layning from the Torah, and it was done at one point in history. It stopped because men were often unlearned in how to layn Torah, so it was seen as an embarrassment to the men. Allow the women to either leave their sefer Torah in a safe place within (Anat offered to donate a Sefer Torah for women's use) or allow them to use one of the 100s available for public use, or bring in and inspect going in and out. Unless now you are accusing WOW of intending theft.
Riley Holzman · Friends with David Miller and 1 other
They can go ahead and do that at the egalitarian section of RA, it is ready and waiting (as my previous post, which was promptly deleted, along with a few others, noted). Why continue to harass and offend women around them? Is the Torah a blunt object with which to beat those around you, or a mode of religious connection? If the later, then why use it in a way deemed inappropriate by fellow worshippers when there is another space along the very same wall at which to pray in your own way to your hearts content? Is the need to re-educate and "subvert" traditional women that strong that the Torah must be used as a prop and weapon?
Rabbi Menachem Creditor Riley, your characterization is unfair and insulting. That is why your previous comment was deleted as well. I'll leave this more recent one up to see what reaction you elicit.
David Dunn Bauer Well, if Robinson's Arch is such appealing real estate, I urge the mechitzahed men's section to head on down there and set up shop.
If we agree that Torah is a tree of life to those who hold fast to it, deliberately impeding anyone's engagement with Torah constitutes a grievous act of injury.
It's interesting how long it has taken the fundamentalist right to come up with the "we're protecting women" argument. For a long time, they were content with "kol isha" and protecting the erotic vulnerability and power monopoly of men.
I don't know about Torah's being used as a blunt object to assault other worshipers. That sounds more like the chair hurled over the mechitzah and the various things that have been thrown at Women of the Wall and their supporters.- Riley Holzman · Friends with David Miller and 1 other
protecting women sounds a bit too paternalistic for my liking. I have met quite a few religious women, and none of them need "protecting". I would say we in the "fundamentalist right" are tired of WoW's incessant missionizing and feel that if they want to conduct themselves in a way that those around them find offensive, that they kindly do it in a place where it will not bother other worshippers. Maybe it seems paternalistic because I (a man) am the one posting, but Ms. Menashe was banned and her post citing Israeli law on this matter was also deleted, so I guess I am one of the few allowed to speak on this matter.
As to your other points, that I think are probably meant to be more combative than constructive: Moving the men to RA is simply impractical. There are hundreds of thousands of men who come to the Kotel on a regular basis. WoW, on the other hand, only number in the 100s at best. Setting up RA as a liberal spot along the Kotel has been embraced by "the movements," but rejected by WoW unless a laundry list of demands are met. As for throwing chairs, I guess its been a while since you have followed this debate. Chair throwing is passe . I am sure Rabbi Creditor is familiar with this MLK quote: "Violence is the language of the unheard". Traditional Jews, especially in Israel, have a hard time getting their point across to secular people in a constructive way; there is a social/language barrier of sorts. WoW made people angry, and not knowing how else to voice this frustration they unfortunately sometimes resorted to violence (I would still argue it was an exception to the rule, but be that as it may). Since Women FOR the Wall was founded, violence has gone from a few bags of refuse and rocks being thrown to eggs, to coffee grinds, to whistles to... silence. Traditional Jews have found the right "language," if a bit late. - Rabbi Menachem Creditor Riley, not sure why "gentle" violence is acceptable to you. And, to be clear: you have an opportunity to channel your distaste for violence and teach those who agree with your position the beauty of MLK's vision. We will continue to disagree, but we won't be hurting each other. That would be a lovely outcome.
- Riley Holzman · Friends with David Miller and 1 other
Indeed. Peaceful and respectful disagreement is what I hope we are all striving for. I do not approve of any violence of any sort, and I hope my comment did not reflect approval. I meant to show that violence has been reduced to 0 since W4W started, citing examples of increasingly less severe violence to prove that point. I did not mean to endorse those forms of violence. 
Daniela Esthetician · 3 mutual friends
As an Orthodox Jewish women who considers herself to be just as feminist as the next person, it absolutely baffles me that a group of people that include men keep talking about the rights of women at the Kotel, yet not only have Orthodox women never been asked their opinion on any of this, but when we finally tried to voice our opinions, we were and are continually quashed and silenced. Why doesn't it register with anyone that if so many of us disagree with you, it's perhaps because we may know a few things you don't? Have you asked us if we believe that the laws you so easily decry were put in place to protect us from men, or are there other considerations that we actually believe in after our own investigation? Have you asked us if we feel we are led by men who refuse to give up power? Or do you only know how to answer with accusations that we've been brainwashed, fed stock answers as if we have no ability to use our own minds, that if only we did use them or were exposed to other beliefs that we would believe like you? Do you have any idea how insulting and condescending *that* is?? Orthodox women have been trying to present our side to this whole issue to you with all the logic, erudition and heart that we have, yet you refuse to listen. We can only then come to the conclusion that you only desire a power of your own, a desire to take over, usurp and force yourselves upon others. All I see here is hypocrisy. If you only see the violence of a handful of men while refusing to listen to the women that have told you time and again how and why they are disturbed by the activities of WoW, we can only come to the conclusion that you don't really care about women at all. You only care about your re-interpretation of Torah being recognized as legitimate. This isn't about the Kotel, it's not about women. It's about anti-Orthodoxy. Let's finally be honest. For once.- Rabbi Menachem Creditor Daniela - three (rhetorical) questions: 1) have you studied the history of WoW, where they adopted Orthodoxy as their tfilah/prayer model for 20 years? 2) is Feminist Orthodoxy one thing with one opinion? 3) is there any responsibility for an Orthodox Jew when violence against others is perpetrated by fellow Orthodox Jews?
- David Dunn Bauer Our Judaism is not re-interpretation of Torah, it is interpretation, just as is yours, Daniela.
This is hugely about the Kotel, about space to which we all have rights and religious attachment.
Daniela, can you share about your care and respect for non-Orthodox Jews of all genders who wish to worship in passion and authenticity at the Wall?
If Robinson's Arch is not yet fully accommodating a space to the #s of men who worship at the wall, and that's the problem, why not restart the allotment of space with the men's only section down there and then work up towards the plaza where the mechitzah now stands.
We are only asking for fair sharing of the space. It sounds like you want dominance. - Daniela Esthetician · 3 mutual friends
1) I have read and studied what they have claimed to be an Orthodox model but believe that their true motivation is inspiring change to their surroundings at the Kotel, due to the fact that time and again their prayer services have been demonstrative in nature according to observers (including me). 2) I believe that Feminist Orthodoxy is presented as something that is supposed to be considered by traditional men and women to be a contradiction in terms, yet those of us who believe in the traditional model are not believed when we say we, too, are feminist. In fact, I see much that is misogynist in the idea that women should be doing what men do in order to be equal. That has been our main point. We take exception to the idea that in order for women to be considered equal, they have to prove the point by wearing Tallis and Tefilin and reading aloud from a Torah scroll. It's all made even worse by including rhetoric about the second class position of Orthodox women, the answers to which have been disrespected or ignored when given by Orthodox women. 3) Is there responsibility for a non-Orthdox Jew when Orthodox women are insulted, silenced and reviled as backward, ignorant, misled, or "handled", and claimed to be traditional only because we don't know better ? Should a feminist be responsible for every instance of hypocrisy when a women is ridiculed for having a belief in tradition, being told she is only repeating what her "Rabbi" told her? You want me to say violence is never acceptable? We have been saying it. All along. But you keep brining it up, despite the fact that it's been curtailed to the point where it's practically now a non-issue. Not one women has ever said it was ok. So stop using it as a point of argument, because it's never actually made your point. It's only made people think that striking a nerve must somehow mean a valid point is being made. That is immature and intellectually lazy. 
Ross Andelman I believe it is completely valid to argue your right to pray in what ever way you choose - separate, witout tallitot,tifillin, etc. And you are free to see WOW as sexist or wrong-headed or even insulting to your Jewish practice. The real questions are really quite simple - to whom does the kotel belong? Why do you have the right to dictate how someone else prays?- Daniela Esthetician · 3 mutual friends
@David. Interpretation of Torah has to be taken in light of motivations and intensions. In my eyes, intension is everything; when an interpretation goes against traditional sources, the question has to be why. A space that is cared about by all Jews must be treated in the same manner as a dinner table. Anyone can eat at the home of one who guards the laws of Kashrut as though their life depends on it, while this is not the case at the home of those who believe the law is "non-static". I can't eat at my conservative brother's house. It pains me, and I don't argue with him about it for one second, but I guard the laws of Kashrut because I believe my life depends on it. I believe that my relationship with the Torah, written and oral, outweighs my relationship with my brother. Besides, we have only seen this question raised of late - in the beginning, what we saw was a prayer group leading a demonstration. "We'll show what we can and can't be allowed to do, let's gather at the Kotel and show those Orthodox Jews a thing or two!" That is what it has looked like all along to us, and that is what was proved to be true by the rhetoric in the press this past spring that was the very impetus for the formation of Women For The Wall. My respect for non-Orthodox Jews to worship as they do at their own synagogues ends when it's made so clear that the purpose is protest of tradition rather than desire to express their passion, especially when an alternative is rejected. As far as I can see, any change to the men's section in the main plaza is part of the desire for change in general - it proves to me that this isn't about the desire to pray. None of us want "dominance" as so many have emptily claimed. We only want the tradition of the thousands of people who frequent the Kotel on a basis that is more regular than anyone else's to be left alone and respected. Once the number of Reform and Conservative Jews attending services on a regular basis matches or exceeds the numbers of traditional Jews, then we can talk about needs for space. You're asking for equal space when you don't actually need it physically - it only can mean that your desire for change outweighs your desire for expression of religious passion. How can I think anything else? - Daniela Esthetician · 3 mutual friends
Why do you believe I think it's only "my" torah and not everyone's? - Daniela Esthetician · 3 mutual friends
Why do you believe I think it's only an Orthodox Kotel and not everyone's? The only way it can be everyone's is if there is never a situation where someone has to leave because they can't be there according to Jewish Law, or can't pray in peace because they are being disturbed by a demonstration. In order for there to be true unity, the Kotel has to be treated the same as one home where everyone can go and eat regardless of how they believe themselves to be bound by Jewish law. If a group comes along and shows disrespect, why should they expect to be respected ?? - Daniela Esthetician · 3 mutual friends
As for the word "tradition", the Reform Movement is 160 years old. The Conservative movement is even younger. If the word tradition doesn't belong to the Orthodox, who does it belong to? 
Ken Sperber The "Orthodox" movement is roughly the same age as the others. All three of these post enlightenment manifestations of Judaism are just that--reactions to the Enlightenment and to each other. They are each different from what came before in some ways and conserving in others.- Riley Holzman · Friends with David Miller and 1 other
Mr. Andelman, you seem to be dodging all Ms. Esthetician's points, and focusing on a narrow issue of who "owns" the kotel, tradition, and Judaism. That is really *not* the point. Do I, and those like me, consider WoW's "judaism" to be a pale imitation of what we consider Judaism to truly be? Sure. Lets get that out in the open. I, and many others, disagree with the entire reformed mentality, and with the "judaism" it has produced. I am entitled to that opinion, just as Mr. Bauer is entitled to think I am a right wing fundamentalist with some freudian erotic issues.
Now, lets put that aside, because like it or not, it really does not factor into this debate.
The debate, as far as I see it, is this: Does a small group of individuals with a new idea of religious practice have the right to come into a traditional setting and attempt to force acceptance of those practices? Now, really we will be talking past eachother, because religious Jews don't really have a concept of religious "rights." We only have obligations or lack thereof. So to come in and say anyone has a right to anything religiously simply does not fit into our paradigm. Conversely, our talk of respecting tradition and not interfering with others rings hollow to ears that are tuned to civil justice and human rights. I guess I would say, in liberal Jewish terms, that everyone has a right to pray undisturbed at the Kotel; traditional and reformed. Unfortunately, the reformed mode of prayer is disturbing to traditionalists. We can debate until we are blue in the face why it is disturbing, or if it should be, etc. Fact is, it is. So we have three options: 1) ban reformed services, 2) accept them, and thus force traditionalists out, or 3) reach a compromise. 3 has been accepted by everyone besides WoW, and certainly rejected by O-WoW.
The above picture is a mischaracterization of the situation. Torah is not banned for women at the Kotel. Those that want to read Torah have a space along the very same Kotel where it will not infringe on the rights of their fellow women. Problem is, as I pointed out before, this will remove media attention, since it will simply be peaceful. This plays into an unfortunate campaign of misinformation and censorship that WoW has been waging for quite a while now. - Ken Sperber "Does a small group of individuals with a new idea of religious practice have the right to come into a traditional setting and attempt to force acceptance of those practices?"
I assume you are referring to Haredi Judaism. Or perhaps I should say, as you do, "judaism."
". . .religious Jews don't really have a concept of religious "rights." We only have obligations or lack thereof." Absolutely correct. Precisely why the *religious* Jewish women in WoW must demand the *right* to fulfill what they understand as their religious *obligations.* They only have to "demand the right" because others are seeking to deny them that "right." Because they understand things, as you do, as *obligation* they have no choice, really, but to fight for the "right." To fail to do so would be to surrender the fulfillment of the obligation. That you disagree with their understanding of their obligation is of no import unless they choose to be bound by your opinion on the matter. Suffice it to say they don't. - Rabbi Menachem Creditor Riley - that framing is very helpful. The part where I disagree most strongly is in the absence of the acknowledgment that Haredi practice is unacceptable to other Jewish approaches which believe in obligation as well. Orthodoxy, as Ken pointed out, is just as recent as every denomination, and is only one Jewish system. Perhaps the real question is: can Haredim share sacred space with non-Haredim?
- Ken Sperber "Unfortunately, the reformed mode of prayer is disturbing to traditionalists." Do the traditionalists, then, in your understanding have a right not to be so "disturbed," or an obligation not to be so "disturbed?" Just asking as a point of information.
Put another way, the fact that I am "disturbed" by someone else does not confer upon me the right to harrass them or in any way molest them. Life in a world populated by people other than myself means that I will have to deal with being disturbed by the practices of others from time to time. Really, it's one of those "most important things we learn in kindergarten." - Daniela Esthetician · 3 mutual friends
I'm not Haredi. Don't assume the people against what WoW are doing are "ultra" Orthodox. We're all just Orthodox. As for the history of Orthodoxy, our beliefs aren't new. This part of the discussion is what is called a Straw Man. - Rabbi Menachem Creditor There is no "just Orthodox", just like there is no one "not Orthodox." On this thread I (a Conservative rabbi) am joined by Reform and Reconstructionist colleagues in defense of WoW. No one should presume one ideology. We do, however, see the Jewish family as larger than our "stream." And, to be very clear, some parts of your (and Riley's) points feel like conversation, and some feel like debate team. Are you trying to score zingers or to learn and teach?
- Riley Holzman · Friends with David Miller and 1 other
I take slight issue with Ken's argument that orthodox Judaism is just as new. True, it is reactionary... but as far as keeping with the mesorah that came before it... much more on point than any other movement. Reform davka split from Judaism, and conservative was a reaction against the extent to which reform went. Orthodoxy, on the other hand, entrenched itself... so it may be wrong-headed about many things, but as far as keeping with tradition, its as close as we're going to get (early conservative maybe had a shot at that title, but the movement has since lost its way).
I tried to unpack Kens discussion of rights and obligations as follows, correct me if I am wrong:
Jewish women must demand their right to fulfill their religious obligations as they understand them [i.e., tefillin, tallis, and torah]. Since they believe these things to be obligatory, they have to fight for the right to do them, lest they not fulfill this obligation.
That is all well and good, I disagree with that characterization, as most of WoW agree that they are not *obligated* in these acts. But lets say they are. Are they obligated to do them at the Kotel right next to people who these actions offend? The issue is not can or can't women dress like traditional Jewish males and sing loudly; it is can they do it *next to traditional Jews who do not appreciate the acts, nor the narrative of saving Jewish women that comes along with it.*
Which gets us to rabbi Creditor's question: Can Haredim share sacred space with non-Haredim? I assume by "Haredim" you mean more traditional Jews, because many of WoW's detractors are Dati Leumi, including a majority of the founders of W4W (as well as secular Jews, etc). Anyway, I think asking for acceptance, i.e., lets all pray at the same place at the same time however we feel like and all be ok with it, is asking alot from religious folks on both sides of the debate. Like you said, there are those to whom traditional practice is a dealbreaker. That is why I think an honest approach to the Robinson's Arch compromise is necessary. For a traditional Jew, Kol Isha is seriously problematic, as is any defect in kavanah. While a liberal Jew may scoff, we do consider these to be real issues for our prayer. And growing up Reform I know that many reformed Jews don't get much out of services unless there is singing and non-traditional elements mixed in. A compromise is therefore necessary for each of us to express our connection to Gd as we see fit. I am glad to see leaders of the movements accepting a compromise, but disturbed at WoW's power grab, and O-WoW's unyielding mission to force themselves upon the traditional women at the current Kotel plaza area. 
Yaakov Menken · 173 mutual friends
Actually, Riley, I would take much stronger issue than that. Orthodoxy is a term created by the Reformers to characterize the Judaism they rejected. Are Yemenite Jews "Orthodox"? Are Syrian, Moroccan, or Iraqi Jews "Orthodox"? All of them follow the same Judaism, with differences in custom that all surround the same core. It is following that common core, which is acceptable to all Jews around the world, that makes it possible to function at a place like the Kotel. Rabbi Creditor, what about those reform groups that feel that they must pray mixed? Should they, too, be entitled to change practice at the Kotel from what 99.5% of Israelis are used to? And why must it stop at Reform? If we're going to change things, why should Jews who think they've found the Messiah not be allowed to set up shop as well?- Rabbi Menachem Creditor Yaakov, the slippery slope argument has no limit, nor is it useful, the historical name Orthodox was not a gift of Reform, and comparing Jewish diversity to a Baptist conversionary tactic is insulting.
- Ken Sperber There are Orthodox defenders of (and participants in) WoW as well. The claim that this is an issue that breaks down cleanly on "movement" lines is what is called a Straw Man.
"As for the history of Orthodoxy, our beliefs aren't new." This, too, is what is called a Straw Man. My comment about history was about the "Movement" of "Orthodoxy" as such. The statement's validity stands irrespective of the observation that the beliefs on which it basis itself are not new. The "beliefs" of Reform and Conservative Judaism are equally not new. Like the core beliefs of Orthodoxy, they trace their roots and source of nourishment directly to and from Torah, N'viim, K'tuvim, and Torah She b'Al Peh as well. Different communities emphasize different elements of that mesorah, but the "beliefs" of all are ancient and none can claim a monopoly on the "legitimacy of beliefs." OTOH, the "Movements" of Orthodoxy, Conservative, and Reform Judaism are all products of history's modern period, as each enters into dialogue with ancient beliefs and traditions. That's not a "straw man." That is history. Orthodoxy's claim to be the one true manifestation of Judaism is just that--a claim. A study of history, however, reveales that these movements as such emerge out the conversation among their founders in response to the Haskalah--S.R. Hirsch, Zechariah Frankel, Moses Mendelsohn, others. These are modern voices and the claim that the Avot/Imahot, Prophets, Tannaim, Amoraim, Geonim, Rishonim, Acharonim would of necessity have been at home in one or the other of our "Movements" is IMO without merit. They undoubtedly would have recognized some of the emphases of each and been bewildered by others. - Riley Holzman · Friends with David Miller and 1 other
I think what Rabbi Menkin is saying, respectfully, is that when you break down the norms of what is acceptable practice at the Kotel, and instead substitute whatever a person feels emotionally fulfills their Judaism, then you set yourself up for some odd results. Messianic Jews think they are Jewish. Does that give them a right to hold a prayer rally at the Kotel? I have had many WoW supporters tell me "yes." Which I find intellectually honest, if a bit disturbing. - Ken Sperber So here we have voices telling us that allowing women a full place at the table (or, more aptly, a full place at the shulchan) will inexorably mean giving over to Christian Minim. Intellectually honest, if a bit disturbing.
- Rabbi Menachem Creditor Riley, respectfullu: comparing my community's religious convictions with "whatever a Messianic" feels crosses a red line. I believe Haredi Judaism is a historically-based movement which altered tradition in ways i find inauthentic. But I don't delegitimize them. I am fighting for Judaism, which is, again, about more than my stream's convictions.
- Riley Holzman · Friends with David Miller and 1 other
Unless you can come up with a different reason than "because it is what makes them feel Jewish" as a reason for allowing WoW, then I think the same logic will apply to any group claiming to feel Jewish. Why not? It sounds ridiculous, true, but I don't see why logically one does not follow from the other. It is not the allowance of women per se, which is where much of the WoW debate gets confusing, but rather the "hefker-ing" of what Jewish practice is and is not. If there were a group "Men for Non-Cohanic Duchening" we would have similar issues (and the acronyms would be a real bummer). It is not really a gender issue, as this thread shows, but rather a traditionalist-reformist debate. As such, why not accept a separate space along the Kotel at which to do whatever you like where it will not offend the traditionalists. Heck, pretend we aren't even Jewish if it will make you feel better. We are Amish, and we don't like you cellphones. Do you force them on us, or do you move away to talk? Barriers to Torah for women at the Kotel HAVE been removed, but WoW does not want to recognize that because it will mean the fight is over, and once the fight is over, the support drops away, and when the support drops away, the money stops flowing and the ability to quash orthodoxy diminishes.
Yaakov Menken · Friends with Charles Arian and172 others
Menachem, feel free to call me Rabbi Menken. You are wrong on history, and what you describe as a "slippery slope" is in fact Anat Hoffman's explicitly stated goal.
I urge you to study the words of Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsch from 1854: It was not the 'Orthodox' Jews who introduced the word 'orthodoxy' into Jewish discussion. It was the modern 'progressive' Jews who first applied this name to 'old', 'backward' Jews as a derogatory term. This name was at first resented by 'old' Jews. And rightly so. 'Orthodox' Judaism does not know any varieties of Judaism. It conceives Judaism as one and indivisible. It does not know a Mosaic, prophetic and rabbinic Judaism, nor Orthodox and Liberal Judaism. It only knows Judaism and non-Judaism. It does not know Orthodox and Liberal Jews. It does indeed know conscientious and indifferent Jews, good Jews, bad Jews or baptised Jews; all, nevertheless, Jews with a mission which they cannot cast off.- Rabbi Menachem Creditor Yaakov, we can both use our names and not our titles. This thread is getting worse. Though there have been moments of clarification, it is also clear that different hashkafot have a hard time hearing each other. I fear that by the time you and I can see each other as fellow rabbis to our people, then the messianic non-Jews will have nothing to promote because Moshiach will have already arrived.
- Yaakov Menken · Friends with Charles Arian and172 others
Ken, WOW does not speak for "women." They have been vastly outnumbered by W4W and for good reason: the American liberal movements, after investing tens of millions of dollars, haven't even a toe-hold in Israel. In Tel Aviv there is 1 Reform Temple, 1 C...See More 
- Yaakov Menken · Friends with Charles Arian and172 others
Eliezer, if they really only wanted to daven, there wouldn't be a brouhaha. But it's that idea about changing things and saying that women need to be "liberated" from the misogynist Orthodox that has women objecting to WOW's presence. And WOW, for thei...See More - Rabbi Menachem Creditor Yaakov, may we each be satisfied to only be partially right. Kol tuv, Menachem
